Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

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ADSB_MBX
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Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:15 pm

Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by ADSB_MBX » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:18 am

Hello,

few times ago i had found air planes with callsigns that are not associated to the airline code and i could not add this route to VR, because i get an error that this two informations are not match. Hmmm...
Today i had an situation:
callsign: CMB151
air plane: B747-422 ( reg. N194UA ) - this is from United
route: ADA - AVB

and the second situation:
callsign: AYY116
air plane: Learjet 35A ( reg. D-CITY ) - owner is Air Alliance, and i did not find it in the lookup. It is possible that Alliance Air with code LLR / CD is the same.
route: PFO - OXF

How can i add routes in such situations?

CharlieAlpha
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Re: Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by CharlieAlpha » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:34 pm

In this situation I don't think you can add the routes.

"CMB" is a pseudo-US military flight. The ICAO code is assigned to U.S. Transportation Command, it seems to be used by civilian aircraft chartered for US military flights, often cargo flights - I have logged Omni Air International, Atlas Air and National Air Cargo using "CMB" callsigns at time.

Andrew could add CMB / U.S. Transportation Command to the database so route could be added but I am not sure they are fixed (the same callsign is probably used for different routes) and they aren't 'published' - FR24 usually doesn't show them.

"AYY" is the code for Air Alliance; Alliance Air (LLR) is an Indian airline (now renamed Air India Regional according to avcodes.co.uk). The callsign AYY116 is actually a fixed callsign for this aircraft (D-CITY), it is used for all flights (well maybe odd exceptions). I logged D-CITY using this callsign on 8-May routing CGN-LPL.

Many business / executive use fixed call signs - a list of some can be found at http://home.btconnect.com/egkb/Callsigns.htm although there are probably other sources as well.

Charlie

ADSB_MBX
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Re: Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by ADSB_MBX » Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:28 pm

Thanks Charlie for the info.
I will see the next flight for CMB if it will have the same callsign.
I had an idea that this small private jets have "static" callsign, because i had seen that FR24 track them with reg. number or an aircraft shortcut.

sonicgoose
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Re: Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by sonicgoose » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:42 pm

I have a similar issue with two commercial airlines. Caribbean sometimes prefix their callsigns with BWA, and sometimes just BW is used. Cubana sometimes uses CUB and sometimes just CU. I can't add the BW and CU routes because the form automatically assigns BWA and CUB. The result is a number of unknown routes in VRS.

Also, the routes submission form removes leading zeros, but the aircraft are broadcasting with the zeros in place. The result is that flights using BWA079, for example, come up as unknown, but those flights that broadcast BWA79 are matched to a route.
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agw
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Re: Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by agw » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:32 am

In both cases those airlines are using their IATA codes instead of their ICAO codes. You can submit routes with IATA codes but I will usually turn them into ICAO codes when I come to process the batch so that the same flight isn't getting entered twice. If the airlines follow ICAO rules then they should really be using their ICAO codes in their callsigns, or their registration if they don't have an ICAO code, but these things are being entered by pilots and some of them seem to just be in the habit of entering IATA codes. However, if that happens then the program will cope. If a Cubana flight transmits the callsign CU1234 then the program searches for a route for CU1234, fails to find it and then starts going through a bunch of alternatives. One of those will be the callsign with the IATA code swapped out for the ICAO code (CUB1234 in this case) and if there's a route for that it'll show it.

The same kind of alternate matching applies to leading zeros. Pilots enter a variable number of leading zeros on callsigns, so I strip them off in the routes database and I strip them off when I do the search. If a flight transmits the callsign CU00012 then it'll search for that to start with, it always searches for what's transmitted, and then it'll take off the zeros and look for CUB12.

If BWA79 is matching to the wrong route then it's likely that BWA79 has changed since it was originally logged. Airlines change the routes flown for flight numbers all the time, you can just submit the new route. Some airlines change the route for a flight number on a daily basis (e.g. Mon-Thu it's one route, Fri-Sun it's another), with those we're kind of screwed, the current system doesn't let you submit weekly timetables for those flights.

If an airline is genuinely simultaneously flying one route as flight 79 and another route as flight 079 then the routes site can't cope with that, it's assuming that the flight numbers aren't being allocated like that. However I've not seen that happen yet.

A few weeks ago I changed the routes site so that you can now do lookups on a route using the same code that VRS uses when it tries to work from a callsign to a route. You can have a play with it here:

http://sdm.virtualradarserver.co.uk/RouteHistory.aspx

In the case of BWA079 you'll see that it tries to match BWA079, fails, and then strips off the zeros and finds the route against BWA79. That will be the route that VRS will use. Likewise if you search for BW000079 then it should also eventually arrive at the route for BWA79. If you enter a route for BW79 then it would get turned into BWA79 during processing and subsequently deactivate the existing BWA79 route when it gets applied to the database.

Finally some pilots, particularly SWG pilots, are in the habit of not bothering with any code at all, they just enter the flight number. For those I look up what they transmit, fail to find a route and then look up the flight number prepended by their operator code. For that to work the aircraft needs an entry in BaseStation.sqb with the correct ICAO code. If you enter routes for them you'll need to use the full callsign.

sonicgoose
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Re: Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by sonicgoose » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:19 am

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Andrew, that's very helpful for me to understand what's happening when I search for a flight and route.
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loww
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Re: Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by loww » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:07 pm

the problem are that the IATA gives small airlines who operate only local (Europe) the same code than airline who operate only in the Asian Region:
http://www.iata.org/publications/Pages/code-search.aspx
:!: :!: :!: I search for People who want exchange VRS Data. I life near LOWW and i have a huge Coverage and multiple Receiver. :!: :!: :!:
My newest Project: http://www.publictransportforum.at/

agw
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Re: Adding a new route with callsign different to airline code

Post by agw » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:53 pm

If the aircraft is following ICAO's rules for the callsign field then they should only use ICAO codes or registrations, not IATA codes.

There are some countries that operate their own rules for internal flights (Australia appears to be one, I was told today that Russia is another) but VRS doesn't implement those rules. For those flights VRS either won't show a route or it'll show the wrong route.

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